A TIMELY REFLECTION ON HISTORY AND LESSONS UNLEARNED: INTERVIEW WITH NOAH KLIEGER, AUSCHWITZ SURVIVOR
The interview took place on February 14, 2014, at the Hotel Leonardo Royal in Berlin and at the Hotel Maritim in Berlin, on March 5, 2014
- An existential question of our civilization is "why". If you cannot ask yourself "why", this is the beginning of totalitarianism… From this perspective, why do you think this question was lacking in Germany of 1933?
- This is a question that cannot be answered. Nobody can explain Germany of the thirties, so there is no answer to this question. It is a phenomenon that happens, I understand, once in History. How could millions of educated people, developed people, elect a nobody, a clown? He looked like a clown, he acted like a clown… How could they elect him? How could they follow him? There is no explanation to this question…
- Many historians consider a characteristic of the German mentality a rip between the dream of peace, and the temptation of domination. Do you agree with it? How do you see the current Germany?
- I do not know whether this is a question of German mentality, but one thing is for sure, I do not think that other nations would have followed a clown like Hitler. I do not think so. For some reason the Germans did admire a man who said things they wanted to hear, for some reason they believed that he could make Germany again the most important country in the world. They always dreamt about the Empire. And then, what is true, the Germans do have a sense of discipline and when someone who is in charge tells them to do something, they do it. They are also very proud and they believe in uniforms. Somebody in uniform is a very special person for the Germans. I think it is still the same, by the way. At that time it was very important. A uniformed man, which means an officer, a soldier, a policeman… was an authority, and they believed in authority. The other nations are not that disciplined.
The French would never go for a thing like this. It is not that the French do like Jews, that is not the problem. The French just do not like to be ordered around, they would not accept someone who tells them to do something that they would not do, because they just would not do it. The Germans would do it. Today’s Germany is different, the Germans are different, it is already a third or fourth generation. And today’s Europe, the world, is cosmopolitan, it functions differently than it functioned at that time. The Germans are not the same anymore. I do not think that today it would be possible, I do not think so. Paradoxically, today, they are our allies.
- When you were 15 years old you wanted to do something practical to help others. You decided to join the Jewish underground movement, cooperating with the French Resistance. You risked your own life to save other children being yourself a child. What was your motivation? Were you afraid?
- My motivation is easy to understand: I wanted to save people, to save Jews. That is what we did. This organisation, "la Résistance", saved many of them. So that was the motivation of course.
I was never afraid, I am still not afraid of anything. I know it sounds funny but it is true, I am not afraid of anything. I am not afraid of dying, I know I am going to die. I am not in a hurry, but I know I am going to die. I will not want to die sick, I will want to die going to sleep and never wake up. I will not like to sit in a wheelchair, or having Alzheimer, I will not want to, of course. But it is not me, I do not decide about it. The destiny is going to decide about it.
- What do you remember from your first day in Auschwitz?
- I do remember everything about the first day, like I do remember everything about the second day, and about the third, and about all the days. But the first day I realised after a few seconds that this was not a labour camp, and then I realised that one could survive this camp only with a lot of luck, because I realised on the first day what this was all about.
We were driven into a hangar. We were about six hundred and sixty men left, because between two hundred fifty or three hundred had been taken away from the arrival, from the platform in Birkenau, immediately to the gas chambers. We did not know about the gas chambers, but they disappeared somewhere. Once in the hangar we had to undress, and we were standing in this place in the open air. It was minus twenty five degrees that day in Auschwitz. It is a very cold area. And we were standing there for twenty four hours. Two thirds of us froze to death, so I did realise where exactly we were. So of course I remember. And then, the procedure, the tattoo on the left forearm, the stripped clothes that we called the pyjamas. This was the first day. My first day in fact was in the hangar, my second day was already in the camp 010 because they were afraid of diseases, so they put all the transports first, for three or four days in the camp 010, in closed barracks. So I realised very fast, very quickly, where exactly we were.
- How did you experience the transport to Auschwitz and the selection process carried out at your arrival?
- We were eighty people in one wagon. There was no room, eighty people do not have much room anyway. We travelled for three days and three nights, from the Belgian camp Dossin Casern, which in Flemish is Machelen, and we arrived in the morning, January 18th 1943, very in the morning, in Auschwitz II. We did not have the slightest idea of where we were, of course. And like I said, I did realise immediately that it was not a labour camp…
As per the selection process, we stood there for a while. We were about one thousand and six hundred people – nine hundred men and about seven hundred women. The women were separated from the men immediately, they disappeared somewhere.
The men stood there for about ten or fifteen minutes, it was freezing cold. Along came three SS officers. One of them, later I learnt his name was Mengele, a so-called doctor, said that we were going to a camp twelve km from there, and did not have enough trucks, so only the ones who were weaker, who were older, who did not feel so well or were sick, they would go on the trucks. The others would have to march. I was with a young friend, a Belgian fellow, Izy Wigodny, who was also sixteen and a half years old. We were the first ones on the first truck as we did not have the slightest ambition to walk twelve km in the freezing cold. And being the firsts, it was an open truck of course, we approached the back of the drivers cabin. On the driver's cabin there was a young SS soldier, because of his badge I realised he was a volunteer from Yugoslavia, and he looked at us and said: leave the truck! And we did not react of course. And then he shouted again: I told you to leave the truck! And again we did not react. And then he said: you leave the truck or I shoot you! This time we did react. So as the truck was already full we had to climb over the drivers cabin, we jumped down, and Izley said to me: you see, the volunteers from other countries are worse than the Germans. Why did he force us to march in this freezing cold? Why did not let us go in the truck? Only some days later did we realise that this young Yugoslav SS volunteer saved our lives. He knew where the trucks were heading, they were heading immediately to the gas chambers, and he must have said to himself: two young kids, give them a chance. Not that we were brought to Auschwitz in order to survive, because no Jew was brought in Auschwitz in order to survive, but who knows, maybe there would be miracles. The miracles were brought to me, not to Izley. He did not come back. So, this is what I do remember about the selection in Auschwitz on the platform in Birkenau. I remember everything.
- What made Auschwitz - Monowitz a specific sub-camp of Auschwitz concentration camp?
- The IG Farben was a large petrochemical holding in Germany, which still exists by the way. They were transferred to Poland and they needed workers. Auschwitz III was called Monowitz, and they had sixteen thousand prisoners working there, working exclusively for the IG Farben. This is why the camp was special.
There was nothing positive in this camp. It was actually one of the worst camps because of the commander, Heinrich Schwarz. Prisoners were beaten to death on the work, hundreds of them died every day, others were sent to the gas chambers because they could not work anymore, because they were too weak to work.
- Did you meet the commandant of Auschwitz III Monowitz, Heinrich Schwarz? If so, how would you describe him and how would you describe the guards?
- I met Heinrich Schwarz many times as a boxer, and he was a monster. I have to admit I never met a friendly SS guard. Never. I am sure there must have been some. Certainly there were some less dedicated to killing Jews and the others, I am sure about that, but personally I never met one.
- After so many years, is it possible to rescue anything positive from your experience in Auschwitz?
- There was nothing positive in Auschwitz, but it shaped my life and future as a Zionist fighting for a Jewish State.
- In an interview you said that you are happy about the Holocaust International Day, but that you have a problem when it comes to hearing about the Liberation of Auschwitz by the Soviet Army. Can you tell me more about it?
- Yes, I am happy about the International Holocaust Day, January 27th. It started in 2005. I am happy because it took them 60 years, the United Nations, to recognize and to realize that there was a Holocaust. Better late than never.
Why did I say, and still say, that Auschwitz was not liberated by the Soviet Army? Because the Germans evacuated the Auschwitz camps. There were forty four of them. They evacuated the Auschwitz camps on the night of January 17th-18th 1945, which was nine days before the Soviet Army reached Auschwitz. So we were not liberated, we were on a March into the German Reich. There were fifty seven thousand of us, the last survivors of all the Auschwitz camps at that time. The Germans were running from the Soviet Army, the German "heroes" were running from them. They were on trucks, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, carriages on horses… and we had to march, and they wanted us to march on a pace, and the ones who did not make the pace were shot. Out of the fifty seven thousand who left the Auschwitz camps that night, less than twenty thousand arrived at the German camps, somewhere within Germany. All the others were shot on the roads of Poland or in Germany. So this is why this evacuation of the Auschwitz survivors is called the March of the Death. That means that the Soviet Army did not liberate Auschwitz, the Soviet Army did not fight to liberate Auschwitz. They in fact lost, I think, thirty four or thirty five soldiers in the fights in upper Silesia, because the Germans were already running, so they did not liberate Auschwitz. They came to Auschwitz, they did not fight in order to liberate Auschwitz. Which did not stop them from giving the order of hero of the Soviet Union to a General, who was very proud of this distinction. Vasily Petrenko was his name.
About twenty five years after the liberation, being in the communist Poland with a small Israeli delegation, I saw General Petrenko, who was next to us with the huge Soviet delegation. I headed to him and asked: tobarish general, how is it possible that you have this medal for liberating Auschwitz? You did not liberate Auschwitz. I was lucky that he was in a very good mood, he looked at me and he did the movement with his hands of "go away". My colleagues from the delegation said: are you crazy? We are not here because we wanted to, they did us a favour to let us into the communist Poland and they will arrest us, so stop talking to him. I met General Petrenko again, many years later, when he was already retired. He came to Israel for the ceremony of May 9th, celebrating the capitulation of Nazy Germany to the Soviet Union in the Second World War. And there he was, an old gentleman in his uniform, of course, with all his distinctions. I went over to him and when he saw me, he said: you again?
- In some circles you can still hear, although luckily not that often, that Polish people share responsibility with the Nazi for the extermination of the Jews. Could you say something in this regard?
- Many of my comrades of the camp, the Polish, who were born in Poland, who grew up in Poland, many of them did say that some Poles did collaborate with Germans. They were feeling somehow guilty of what was happening in the lands of Poland. I always say that compared to the other nations the percentage of the Polish collaborators was marginal.
The Germans were the ones who planned and organised the Holocaust, the Germans were the ones who made the extermination camps in Poland, the Germans were the commanders, the Germans were the bosses, the Germans were in charge of all this.
The one nation whom the Germans really fought were the Poles. Amongst the twenty four thousand Righteous of the Nations, at least seven or eight thousand, which means one third, are Polish. The Poles were very brave without any doubt. Poland has always had brave people. They risked their lives and they risked the lives of their families because in Poland anyone who was helping the Jews was punished by death. Poland has lost many people fighting the Germans. Hundreds of thousands of Polish people were murdered in Auschwitz and other concentration camps, as well as in the Gestapo torture chambers, because they did not want to accept the German rules. In the Western European countries occupied by Germans it was different.
Let’s not omit the fact that occupied Poland had the largest underground resistance movement in Europe during the 2nd World War: Home Army. Nearly half of all the reports received by the Allies from continental Europe between 1939 and 1945 came from Polish sources. The Home Army intelligence was the first who was alarming the world about the German crimes committed against Jews, including information on German concentration camp in Auschwitz. Unfortunately, Jan Karski’s testimony has not been considered by the Allies with due attention. We also have to bear in mind that World War II would go on for much longer, if it wasn’t because of the Polish reports about the German Wunderwaffe. I’m saying all this because many times stereotypes, ignorance or lack of knowledge underestimate Polish contribution to victory of the Allies during the 2nd World War.
- In January 19th 2014, the Association of German Historians (VHD)1 agreed that phrases such as "Polish concentration camps" are unacceptable, as they suggest misperceptions of responsibility for Nazi crimes. The German press, though, did not pick the story up…
- And it is true. It is not a Polish camp and it has nothing to do with Poland. The Poles have demanded years ago that it should be called "Auschwitz, a German extermination camp in Poland". Since 1989, independently of the government, Poland has been pro-Israeli, and now is one of our best friends.
- You always speak and write as a witness, as a survivor, you don’t hide behind the false veil of contemporary political correctness. You try to understand History but you do not justify it. Why is it important for you to talk about what Germans did, and not what Nazi did?
- I never use the word Nazi because Nazis were not another nation that came from a far star, from another planet, that landed on the earth, spent twelve years on this earth, made a big mess and went back to their planet. The Germans were Nazis and elected Hitler as their leader. Hitler did not take power by force, he was elected as the strongest party in 1933. The Germans could have voted for the socialists, for the communists, but they voted for his party. So they cannot claim that they were not Nazis, they were all Nazis. The Germans are Nazis and the Nazis are German. Nowadays, if you try to hide the past you relativise History.
- Today, Germany, sixty nine years after the end of World War II, wants to bring the former Auschwitz guards who are still alive to justice. What is your opinion about it?
- For sixty years Germany has left alone ten thousand SS murderers. Every SS who served in a camp was a murderer, so they should have brought them to justice many, many years ago, and the Germans did not do it. They overlooked them, they let them go, they let them live. They had a few trials which ended in a disaster: some of them were acquitted, some of them got one year sentences and were liberated immediately, and most of them were never brought to justice. Today they are dealing with ninety years old men, ninety five years old men, who could never go to a trial. They are too old, they would not go to a trial because they would die before the end of the trial in any case.
- Does it make sense for you?
- Of course. They should do it anyway, because at least it is symbolic. It is a symbol. It will not help, but it is a symbol. It would mean that they tried, that they are doing something against them, and that is why they should bring them to court. But until they do it, there will be nobody left.
- You said "I wanted to see the day that Hitler lost, and to live at least one day longer than him". There are still people who deny the Holocaust, do you think that Hitler has been defeated?
- Yes, the existence of a Jewish State on the ashes and shambles of European Jewry is the proof.
- After the fall of the Berlin Wall, it seemed obvious that most of the European societies would choose the democratic road. Nowadays in the same Europe, which was proud to be the guardian of human rights, it looks like there is the temptation to reject those rights. Are we living in a time of crisis of values?
- You mean Russia?!
- For example…
- Sure, Russia rejects them, everybody knows. Putin is a dictator, on top of that a bad one… you must put an end to what he is trying to do in Ukraine, how to do it, I do not know. I could suggest one has to impose sanctions and warn Russia, it is not a big deal, you can impose sanctions, you only have to decide which ones: you can freeze bank accounts of Russia, you can stop buying from Russia. The Europeans have a problem because they need Russian gas, but do not forget that in a couple of years gas and oil will not be the issue anymore. Putin should also remember that. He certainly wants to have a dictatorship in Russia, he wants to be the Russian dictator. Now it is the world’s task to stop him, to show him that there are limits, that there are red lights, if not, the consequences for the entire world will be tragic. If not now, in the near future. Only this way we can avoid conflicts. I hope the Europeans will become aware of what is going on before it is too late.
- What does Homeland mean to you? Do you think there is a Promised Land?! Would it be Israel or perhaps a United Europe?!
- Definitely Israel. About a United Europe I am not sure anymore…
- Nations who forget their own History have no future... Irena Sendler’s biggest dream was that people remembered what happened. The experience of our civilization shows that it has not always been like that. Therefore I would like to ask you, what do we need to do to preserve our memory and the next generations’ to stop nationalism, extremism, to avoid future/religious conflicts in the world and make one step forward, to finally learn from History?
- I am very glad that you mention Irena Sendler, she was a great person, and one of the best things which could have happened to our nations, Poland and Israel.
To answer your question, I think that we have to remember Hitler’s Germany. We also have to remember Stalin, a man who did not plan killing millions of people, but killed millions. We must remember that we should not allow large countries to have dictators, to have dictatorships, because they could really do things that others could not approve of, and you would not be able to interfere, to stop them.
Everything that I’m telling you, I’m not only saying it as Noah Klieger who survived the Hell of Holocaust. I say it because it is my duty to get to as many people as possible and to make sure that these tragedies never happen again.
- Thank you for the interview, Mr. Klieger
- It was a big pleasure from my side.
Noah Klieger was born in 1926 in Strasbourg, France. He had a very intense life story. As a teenager, he joined the Jewish underground movement collaborating with the French Resistance and saving hundreds of lives. Being in Auschwitz he was a boxer. A Zionist who fought for the Independence of Israel, a war hero. He is also the world’s oldest active journalist who has worked primarily for leading Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronot as well as French sports daily L’Equipe, publications he has been tied with for more than 50 years. Vice-President of the International Auschwitz Committee. Main speaker at UN General Assembly ceremony marking International Holocaust Memorial Day in 2017. Some of his awards: Life Achievement in Sports and Sports Journalism Award of the Israeli National Olympic Committee (2008); B’nai B’rith World Center Award for Journalism in the Category of Lifetime Achievement Award (2011); National Order of the Legion of Honor of the Republic of France (2012).
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*1PM: VHD lehnt Begrifflichkeiten wie "Polnische Konzentrationslager" als falsch ab / Zrzeszenie Historyków i Historyczek Niemiec odrzuca określenie "polskie obozy koncentracyjne" jako fałszywe; see: http://www.historikerverband.de/mitteilungen/mitteilungs-details/article/pm-vhd-lehnt-begrifflichkeiten-wie polnische-konzentrationslager-als-falsch-ab-zrzeszenie-histo.html
